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Published 07/30/16 by -Anteros- [1 Comments]

This post is in response to Niko's post here which is based on a talk we had here. I don't often write blogs or even participate on reddit. If you looking for me or men like me, the TRP IRC channel is here. I've already covered most of this on reddit here.

Note: I'm not a blogger and have no plans to become one, this post already too long and is mostly covered in the reddit comments. I look forward to further MGTOW jimmy rustling, a few young men showed up in our channel ready to start lifting and talking to girls in public and that is my goal.

> I believe that because that is an attitude taken primarily in fear; in fear without any justification of previous experience and based primarily in overinflated risks, that do account for the majority of MGTOW videos

Thats it, lets pack it up and go home. This is the gist of my disagreement with the intellectual coddling male "Eat, Pray, Love" that is MGTOW. I have not heard a good response to the "Mistaking the unintelligible for the unintelligent" argument yet.

> I know that the ability of men to socialise is lacking in comparison to women. This is possibly due to the social structures in existence which push down the men who are not socially capable, the value of your manhood being judged by the outside world on your financial success and by enlarge your success with women.

This is starting down the woe-is-me path. The judgement of other people has always been of limited value. Such is one of the lessons that a young man should pick up early and if he follows the 25/25 prescription he will realize this before age 25.

> Men as a group together are not social butterflies, but they can learn how to be better at it, where I believe learning the basics of red pill philosophy and learning how to socialise will minimise the risk of them getting falsely accused of rape etc. Of course, I am also aware that Anteros is perhaps not talking about those men, but rather the high functioning men who are choosing to stay away from women.

Men are social, we thrive in hierarchies and common goals. This is not the reality for women. One of the prescriptions I make for young men is to join a team sport, preferably a contact sport like football/rugby. I'm sure there are some exceptions to the vast majority of MGTOW, it comes up every time we try to nail down a fact about men just like the "Not me" arguments feminists spout. "What about men at X age?", "Men who have suffered X".

To deal with this exception to the rule tactic we should structure our discussion more. This happens automatically in the IRC channel yet as a general idea the prescription of "Make mistakes when you are young and the stakes are low" holds true. So long as the mistake is not acquiring AIDS or a facial tattoo.

> When we accuse these men of being basement dwellers or losers or whatever have you, we are creating a reality in which we primarily associate ourselves as the winners and them as the losers, or what we are doing as good and what they are doing as bad.

Shame works. I had no idea that MGTOW would react so strongly to childish name calling but now that they have I will use it 3x as often. These "Men" are exposing that they didn't learn the schoolyard lesson of "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me". Instead they flip out and try to share their pain via miscalibrated counter insults about my IQ or Relationship. What a lightning rod. Until they learn this elementary lesson its just going to get worse.

The MGTOW community and I are not equals in the SMP arena, I'd go so far as to say that I've had/have experiences that many of them wish they could and I want them to go out and get those experiences, feminists be damned. If these intelligent young men quit before getting what they wanted, the cat lady barren feminists have won and nobody wants that.

> What is lacking in general in society at present, is contentment within men. Very few men live lives for themselves and very few men do live life without regrets, knowing full well that the paths that they have chosen were the ones they actually wanted.

Yet, at many of the important socialization stages prior he did what he wanted. One of the reasons that men are not content is that they fail to succeed with women, its harder to find discontent within a man who has a strong support structure at home that involves a submissive feminine woman.

Just because we want something does not mean it makes us happy and being happy does not ensure long term success, quite often the hard things in life are the most valuable. Getting on the hedonic treadmill is poisonous for a man and that is exactly what lies in the basement, where MGTOW dwell.

>Just think of the millions of men stuck in jobs that they hate to support their families. For those married men, there is no choice. You may claim there is, but in reality, every choice towards giving themselves personal fulfilment has disappeared until their children are 18 years of age.

There was a choice, now he has a harder path because he has the most valuable thing a man will ever have, which is more important than his hobbies/job/etc. Objectively, having children is a sacrifice for a man just like having an LTR (lost opportunities).

> A man has to be successful in order to be even visible to the opposite sex.

Young women open up their legs to losers all the time. The "play guitar for money" kind of loser, not the basement dwelling loser.

>Though that technically is absolutely spot on, men need to be successful and perform, that is not the way to liberate masculinity or the male spirit

So, the master carpenter with a happy family and an established foundation in the SMP does not have a liberated male spirit? I think he does. We did not nail down exactly what male happiness is in the call (probably deserves its own discussion) here are a few things I think liberates said spirit (not an all-inclusive list) :

  1. Setting and accomplishing goals
  2. Training and enjoying dogs/women (in different ways, perv)
  3. Freedom
  4. Companionship
  5. Climbing a hierarchy
  6. Mentorship

The MGTOW mind may have trouble reconciling this with involving those eevil hypergamous women. The TRP mind works to find a way to include it all.

> but rather it is a way to enforce a specific way of living, one based primarily in the ways the women view men and by in turn how men view men.

This is important. concepts are not wrong because they come from women (Indeed, all should be examined which is what we're doing here). Old women often espouse RP knowledge without the benefit of internet forums. Women tend to recommend a certain way of life not out of self interest but from examples of what successful (in Work/SMP) men have done. MGTOW redefining the terms of winning to include "whatever makes them happy" is as nonsensical as Eat, Pray, Love was for women.

>When men tell me that they have done their research, they have tried relationships, they just don’t see the point anymore, they simply don’t care what men think of them or what a woman thinks of them, I am more than happy to agree with them.

Intellectualizing again. They're not ready for relationships if the relationships feel like work and pain. "Research" on relationships is just a handy intellectual excuse at this point. He must learn how to manage a relationship through experience/trial & error/etc.. essentially what TRP teaches, a more complete story than the lopsided one that MGTOW presents. We should identify the different advice for different stages of life in the future as Rollo does in his second book Preventative Medicine. If we keep going back and forth about the "advice for young men this" but the "advice for old men that" (Not that I have much) we won't make progress.

>If ever they feel the need to engage with women again, they can do so. It will take more effort sure, and of course the red pill theory is perfect in getting what you want, but what it does give them is choice.

At age 40-60 after they've spent years in the basement? This is overly optimistic. I've never heard of this happening and I doubt it is a high percentage of MGTOW. Which brings me to another issue, these are not super alphas who have been sleeping around since grade school and then grow tired of women, these are smart middle class men who are:

  1. Not have the success with women they would like
  2. Being lured into the basement by video games and porn
  3. Have something useful to give to the world especially because they are so intelligent.

Videogames, porn, laziness, over intellectualizing, researching instead of living, avoidance of women (they're already associated them with pain in his mind), equating hobbies with life accomplishments, intellectualized coddling (MGTOW). These are whats telling him not to be productive, not an explicit prescription from the extraordinarily rare super alpha MGTOW.

> Women are the fattest sex, yet they live longer, they have childbirth but due to modern medicine very few if any die from it, they have cancers related to their hormonal profile, yet we have the best treatments for them.

The capacity for childbirth and biological capacity for child rearing gives women this advantage, as it should since two lives are potentially involved. Equality does not exist for humans. This does indeed suck for afflicted men. Leaving the story there is the disservice of MGTOW.

> The reason men die younger is because they kill themselves, they fight for countries that don't give a shit about them and because they work themselves to the grave. It's about time we changed that.

Agreed, now why don't we include re-socializing in this treatment? Is it because we are buying into the patients idea that they are incapable? because they're ugly? divorced? depressed? The moment we buy into this crap line of thinking is the moment they feel like checking out of the SMP. It feels very nice to have an alternative to the hard re-socializing work that TRP advocates. Hobbies sound much nicer. Poison always sounds nice.

> The red pill suggests a way to own your woman, or to be her master. The MGTOW line of thinking suggests a way to be the master of your own life. If at that point you want to have a woman, you will but it will be on your own terms completely.

These two are not mutually exclusive. There is a lot of overlap since a man being the master of his own life is the first step in him owning his woman. The PUA mistake is changing from the outside in, TRP is changing from the inside out.

> Now you might be proud of the sacrifice, but these men are not proud.

They're not proud because their outcomes suck. Not because the concept of male valor sucks. As discussed, part of becoming a great man involves learning how and who to sacrifice for. I'd say that family is a worthy sacrifice, the majority of employed men agree even though they have their own problems.

>In order to do that a man must understand himself first. Once that is done, the path one man chooses to live will change many times. It will likely involve women but not in the traditional sense of relationships and if relationships do occur it will be on his own terms. In order to make a rational choice about women, a man must understand women and judge them for what they really are, not just conceptually but by experience too. A man cannot simply reject his nature and take the easy way out, because that is likely to leave him unfulfilled, which is where your disagreement lies.

This is in line with what I've said. All the threesomes and side girlfriends I've had support the idea that a non-traditional relationship can work.

>Perhaps, for you, your path to happiness, but that to many is a happiness linked to the success of your relationships between you and an unknown variable. That variable is likely to change over time. If your path to happiness is only linked to the relationship you have with you and you associate in a world because you benefit it as it benefits you the path to happiness is much more likely to find.

Happiness is an amorphous alluring concept, like a carrot at the end of a stick for people. If things go south today and my girl leaves I can (and will) still find joy in the world, if that happens after we have children I'll still have to find a way. I'd survive a divorce and losing access to my child because I've lived life in the way that I have, not because I've intellectualized my way through it.

>Yet, I still want them to choose their own way. I want them to define their own masculinity.

Men will define themselves no matter what this is a part of becoming a man, just like the important re-socialization work that takes place in his youth. Giving inexperienced or injured men the responsibility of defining masculinity is doing them a disservice. Throw in the shared group sentiment of "Women are bad" and we have a group of self assured basement dwellers avoiding the mating dance.

This is the outcome, not enlightened self-direction built on the shared experience of men who are successful in the sexual marketplace.

For that come here TRP IRC

Tip -Anteros- for their post.
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Comment by JoeofKek on 09/06/16 06:02am

Whatever. You're still a degenerate, and you know it. Avoiding the dance is better than catching herpes.