@AFTSOV

Sounds like my fringe view is held by a large subsection of people.

Theonomy isn't a view that is related in any way to any branch of historic Christianity. It is one of the many systems that rose in the midst of the 19th century American cult factory that produced every Christian variant from Mormons, JW, and Seventh-day Adventists, to the Church of Christ, and the Children of God (child-rape cult that Rose McGowan grew up in).

I'm not sure if you're a real theonomist, but in general they have religious views akin to fundamentalist Islam, believing in the conquest of civilization and the enforcement of Old Testament law through the power of the state. I can assure you that given the power, no theonomists that I've met would spare dissidents posting on an RP website from punishment.

Anyway, good news about being a hypercalvinist baptist is that you don't need to convert people or reason with them, your only job is to proclaim God's judgement against them, so have fun with that... youtu.be/n9o1x_tnxwa

@AFTSOV

You quote stuff, but it's not really clear what you're saying. I agree that the Bible teaches everything you are quoting, but fuck, it's like you don't know what it means. Sure there are times for war, but wars are waged by states against other states. Christians are not called to rebel against their own government, which has been appointed by God.

It seems like conflating all sort of stuff, but I can't tell because you are so unclear.

Read your fucking Bible. Actually read and study it. Read the epistles. Read the gospels. They are extremely clear about vengeance and wrath belonging to God and being part of God's role.

That was their time as martyrs, but the time for sacrificial lambs, and for martyrdom is over. This is a weird ass take. Really weird ass. There are more Christian martyrs now than at anytime in human history. I'm not sure what eschatology you hold to but virtually every branch of Christendom, regardless of eschatology, besides theonomists believe that Christian martyrdom will increase until the day of judgement, based on the scriptures.

Theonomists usually believe that Jesus already returned in judgement in 70AD and that Chritians are responsible for taking over the world's governments and building a perfect theocratic utopia, but this is a very rare and narrowly held view. Pretty much everyone else... Copts, Roman Catholics, Eastearn Orthodox, Syrian Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Reformed, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Lutheran, Zwinglian, Moldovian, Methodist, Dispensationlists, Baptist, Non-denominational, etc. all believe that Christian persecution will worsen until the day of wrath.

"Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matt24)

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?” (Rev6)

I think that I'm done giving you Bible lessons. But I do encourage you to go and learn what the Bible actually teaches if you want to be a Christian or Biblical or whatever you want to call it. I guess you can go make up your own religion, based on picking and choosing passages that you like. Plenty of others have, but I don't understand what the point of being a Christian is if that's what you're going to do.

But if you want to characterize Christianity, it is about the forgiveness of sins, and hope in the life to come. You don't seem to have much of a grasp on that.

@hannulv

I don't discount the OT, but you must also realize that there is a difference in reading a historical narrative and being commanded to a certain behavior. The NT contains very clear exhortations combined with historical narrative demonstrating them. Much of it is letters from apostles to the church, often regarding how they should act. In the OT, we have the books of the law and wisdom literature, and sometimes the prophets exhorting individuals to certain behaviors, but no where a individual believers called to open rebellion. We can't read the command by God for Joshua to lead his troops in a genocide of Canaan as general call for believers to do the same.

What we can do however is look at the principle that God has supplied in the command to Joshua, and hold ourselves and our leaders to that standard. Should our leaders then lack such a principle to move them, it can surely be extrapolated that the good and righteous among us must hold fast and stay true to God's command, no?

I understand the distinction as you've made it, and I agree that context is very important when interpreting The Bible, but there are plenty of examples of uprisings in The Bible -- and if not as many, at least some examples of what God does when no one steps up.

@AFTSOV

Holy Fuck, you are frustrating to have a discussion with. From the passages, I can't even tell what you are trying to argue. I'm not sure that you know yourself.

Some tips: Stick to an actual translation, if you're going to cite text (not a paraphrase). People that flop translations during a theology discussion are usually selling you something. ESV is usually pretty good because it doesn't take a ton of liberties with the Greek and Hebrew. Next, cite text that actually supports your assertion.

BTW, I taught the adult Sunday school in my church for years, and even learned quite a bit of koine Greek. The pastor and elders were my Bible students.

From the passages, I can't even tell what you are trying to argue. I'm not sure that you know yourself.

I don't discount the OT, but you must also realize that there is a difference in reading a historical narrative and being commanded to a certain behavior. The NT contains very clear exhortations combined with historical narrative demonstrating them. Much of it is letters from apostles to the church, often regarding how they should act. In the OT, we have the books of the law and wisdom literature, and sometimes the prophets exhorting individuals to certain behaviors, but no where a individual believers called to open rebellion. We can't read the command by God for Joshua to lead his troops in a genocide of Canaan as general call for believers to do the same.

I totally agree that Christians are called to resist evil and speak truth to power. But they are also called to suffer for it in this life for the hope of the life to come. Christians are also forbidden from rebelling against or dishonoring government authorities. I've already cited the unambiguous passages that support that claim, but I can cite them again if you wish.

The model of speaking truth to power in the new testament is clear. Peter, Paul, and the other Apostles boldly spoke out and rejoiced in their suffering, beatings, and imprisonment. Like John the Baptist, Peter and Paul were likely martyred at the hands of their government. The early church followed this model, with Polycarp, a student of St. John, and bishop of Smyrna, recorded as being burned at the the stake for his words as early as 155AD.

There were plenty of zealots leading rebellions against Rome at the time. But Christians were called to obey authority, which was one of the main reasons they weren't eradicated. Eventually Jewish revolts against Rome, some led by people claiming to be the Messiah, resulted the sacking of Jerusalem, the scattering of the Jews, and the second Diaspora in 70AD.

Acts is an interesting book, because its the historical narrative of the early the Church. Read it. Beyond the miracles, and church councils, it is a model of the behavior that Christians are exhorted to follow in the epistles, with things like:

Selling everything you have and giving it to the poor: Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common. And with great power the apostles were giving their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. (Acts4)

Rejoicing in their suffering for the name of Jesus: ...and when they had called in the apostles, they beat them and charged them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.(Acts6)

Submissive Martyrdom: Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep.(Acts7)

Radical Obedience to Authority: About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts16)

Honorific appeals to Authority: And as he was saying these things in his defense, Festus said with a loud voice, “Paul, you are out of your mind; your great learning is driving you out of your mind.” But Paul said, “I am not out of my mind, most excellent Festus, but I am speaking true and rational words. For the king knows about these things, and to him I speak boldly. For I am persuaded that none of these things has escaped his notice, for this has not been done in a corner. King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe.” And Agrippa said to Paul, “In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?”And Paul said, “Whether short or long, I would to God that not only you but also all who hear me this day might become such as I am—except for these chains.” (Acts26)

@Antelope

Welcome to the Thunderdome.

The O.T. is full of battles, executions, and genocide. But if you look at the context, it is either an anointed leader (king, prophet, judge, etc.) either waging war against a foreign nation or purging evil from within their own nation.

There is no application here for an individual Christian rebelling against their own government. The new Testament is explicitly clear that Christians are not to rebel against governing authorities. Even disobedience is unacceptable, except when the state is ordering the Christian to violate God's explicit laws.

There's a big distinction between God directly ordering a nation to go eradicate an evil city, and you feeling like you should dishonor your God-appointed governing authority, Emperor Nero, because he's a bad dude. There are direct commands from God regarding the Christian's behavior in the context straight from the mouth's of His apostles.

Unless, God appears to you and tells you rebel, you already have a directive that is clearly spelled out in scripture.

@hannulv

Ah, the proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim, and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley of those overcome with wine! Behold, the Lord has one who is mighty and strong; like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest, like a storm of mighty, overflowing waters, he casts down to the earth with his hand. The proud crown of the drunkards of Ephraim will be trodden underfoot; and the fading flower of its glorious beauty, which is on the head of the rich valley, will be like a first-ripe fig before the summer: when someone sees it, he swallows it as soon as it is in his hand. In that day the Lord of hosts will be a crown of glory, and a diadem of beauty, to the remnant of his people, ... Isiah 28:1

—

When you go out to war against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and an army larger than your own, you shall not be afraid of them, for the Lord your God is with you, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. 2 And when you draw near to the battle, the priest shall come forward and speak to the people 3 and shall say to them, ‘Hear, O Israel, today you are drawing near for battle against your enemies: let not your heart faint. Do not fear or panic or be in dread of them, 4 for the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.’

10 “When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. 11 And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. 12 But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. 13 And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, 14 but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. 16 But in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you for an inheritance, you shall save alive nothing that breathes, 17 but you shall devote them to complete destruction,[a] the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded, 18 that they may not teach you to do according to all their abominable practices that they have done for their gods, and so you sin against the Lord your God. -Deuteronomy 20

And Jehoiada made a covenant between himself and all the people and the king that they should be the Lord's people. Then all the people went to the house of Baal and tore it down; his altars and his images they broke in pieces, and they killed Mattan the priest of Baal before the altars. - Chronicles 23:16

Instead, it claims that all governing authorities are from God, and unjust authorities should be obeyed, given Honor, and suffered under, so that Christians can suffer as Christ suffered.

This is a disingenuous framing of the call to Christ. He does not teach for us to join a concerted effort of suffering, he calls us to do good despite the suffering that may cause.

You’ve interpreted a slave complex in Christianity because that is the blue pilled take, try changing the perspective you are looking at it from.

@AFTSOV

Don't ever compare those wicked demonic devil worshipers to the true Lord Of Lords and King Of Kings that is Jesus Christ. There is a power hierarchy. Innocent and weak are squashed by the demonic and wicked. But the Demonic and wicked are destroyed by the righteous and noble.

I call bullshit. Christians are called to love and obey both their enemies and overlords.

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (Matt5)

Christians are called to obey governing authorities like those controlled by WEF puppetmasters. And in Peter and Paul's day they were talking about Nero, so don't tell me authorities were better then:

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. (Rom13)

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust. For this is a gracious thing, when, mindful of God, one endures sorrows while suffering unjustly. For what credit is it if, when you sin and are beaten for it, you endure? But if when you do good and suffer for it you endure, this is a gracious thing in the sight of God. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps. (1Pet2)

Evil only prevails when Good men do nothing.

This is not scripture. Forceful, military resistance is not what Christians are called to. Christians are called to bless and suffer under those who are evil, especially authorities, and leave vengeance to God. It is Christians who are called to do nothing against evil, and trust that God will prevail and set things right in the new heavens and new earth:

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom12)

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev6)