@carnold03 I think you have put this more concisely than I could have. this is a good comment. If we disregard these guys as "incels" or low value losers then we are ignoring the canary in the coal mine.

The canary dies first because it is weakest. When the canary dies, you know there is a problem. These guys are in the same messed up continuum we are, they are just closer to the fire burning a hole in men's oportunities and happiness today.

Just because the weakest links are breaking does not mean we should not be understanding them or caring about them even if we do not want to emulate them. They have a contribution to make.

Personally I don't really like this praxeology thing anyway. It flies (at least in interpretation) a bit close to "Lived experience" which is a woolly notion the left hides behind for needing special treatment, cancelling and deplatforming people. I want to look for objective measurable reality.

A praxeology studies intentional behaviour (regardless of outcome I might note) and not unconscious and reflexive behaviour. Actually a lot of what we talk about is unintentional and reflexive and where we use intent it is often with the ultimate aim of changing a lived experience to create better reflexive and unintentional behaviour. (like how young men of low status view themselves and interact with women, so they can have more happiness and success).

I am not really happy with the notion of us being a praxeology and would be glad to debate it with anyone who would like.

There is a reality out there. Our aim is to objectively measure it. and act on what we find. If you want to go with "lived experience" I am cool with that so long as every man is a sensor in the array of lived experience. If we don't like how uncalibrated some sensors are, its very hard to say who is right and who is wrong because we all have a subjective assessment of reality.

Sorry to others that is this my only reply to date for a while. Just been a bit busy and its a good topic and deserves a good answer. I just thought Carnold had a good point here that was worth highlighting. These low status men are part of the whole situation and should not be disregarded or silenced because they have not been approved by being worthy of women's love.

@Durek_The_Bald

A) you fucked up my username. Twice, in fact. have some vcards!

B) a man can do everything "right" and still get suboptimal results. Ever listen to Rian Stone talk about how the guys at MRP end up? Most guys who show up don't put in the work and disappear. Of the guys who put in the work and run their MAPs, some of them end up divorced anyway. Of those who end up divorced, some of it is because their improvements were too little, too late. Others are because the wife is too retarded to appreciate a decent guy when she has one. Others initiate it themselves because after putting in all that work, they want better than their wives.

So again: you can do everything right, and still have suboptimal results.

To believe otherwise is a massive covert contract ("if I do all the stuff, I'll have a problem-free life!").

C) in your OP, you said:

If you don't have genuinely enjoyable sexual/romantic relationships with women, you are not red pill.

There are plenty of Red Pill MGTOW guys who are just done. Terrence Popp. Joker of Better Bachelor. Sandman. HammerHand. Some of the guys who used to populate the comments section at WAATGM such as our founder @Kevin32, and DangZagnut aka YouSaidChicken. All of them have demonstrated knowledge and experience, and have decided they'd rather not bother with women anymore.

I can understand and respect that decision, though it's not for me.

D)

If all his theoretical knowledge only brought him to a place of perpetual resentment, schadenfreude, victimhood, and a need to complain about everything under the sun,

The ones who fit that description are either new and still in the anger phase, or just got stuck in it way longer than most. They deserve pity and help rather than scorn.

... up to a point. If someone makes a deliberate decision to wallow in misery even after getting offered help, I'll roast the shit out of him for being a pussy-ass whiner.

@Durek_The_Bald

...the vast majority of men populating red pill space, or creating content, are not red pill.

Perhaps we’re getting into the semantic weeds here, but this statement of yours is nonsensical. It’s like saying “that dude sitting in Church is not the Church.”

Being red pilled is being more informed than you were before. And that journey can take a long time. I tend to avoid shitting on men for being early in their journey, but I don’t tolerate anyone Gatekeeping no matter who does it.

YOU don’t get to evaluate or assess how another man processes his journey.

Now if you had said “The men who _____ annoy me because it does not adhere to Rule #3 in Joe Schmoe’s Red pIll bible” then I would take it differently.

Grifters are entering mens’ spaces like crazy lately, and way too many are women. They are slowly chipping pieces of TRP content away and claiming it as their own by redefining. It is a classic grifter thing. I have misgivings about a few content creators - Rollo, Paul Elam, and Ryan Stone are a few. They seem to want to claim ownership of parts (or all) of "the red pill.”

then the state of a man's red pill journey can only be judged from where he's actually at in real, lived terms.

No. Some men take time to process. You are justifiably annoyed at some men whining. So am I. But that has no bearing on where a man is, and how he processes the information. If you did some sort of methodologically sound study on a few guys, tracking their states of mind over time, then yes - you can make such claims.

Otherwise you are saying “I am judging these men because they are not as RP-cool as me"

Just, no.

If all his theoretical knowledge only brought him to a place of perpetual resentment…. he hasn't demonstrated that is has actionable value

You have heard of Red Pill Rage. WTF dude. We have all been here before. And that may take a year or two.

YOU are not the arbiter of what or what is not red pill, THE red pill, a red pilled man, or a red pill journey.