I've been telling a lot of other men various portions of this for years, whether at the WAATGM comments section, on the trp.red side of this site, or various TRP or askTRP comments sections. I figured it was about time I stopped repeating myself and consolidate this info into a single post I can link back to in the future.

Caveats: much of the female behavior I'll discuss here is done out of instinct; they frequently won't even realize they're doing it. If you accuse them of keeping you as a backup option like a retarded autist, of course they're going to deny it. They aren't consciously aware that's what they're doing, and they don't like being accused of being a "bad person". None of this is about morality, but rather about what's beneficial or detrimental to you as a man.

Conventional RP/MGTOW/manosphere wisdom is that men and women cannot be friends.

While this is generally true, it's not without exception.

Generally, if a woman puts you in the FriendZone, it's for one or a combination of the following reasons:

• she wants to reject you without being "the bad guy" and still has some of that instinctive fear that you'll become violent if she says how she really feels ("eeew! get away from me!").

• she's not attracted to you enough to throw her pussy at you, but you're not so repulsive to her that she wants to reject you outright, and so wants to keep you around as a backup option (aka orbiter).

• she doesn't want a sexual relationship with you, but still wants to use you for attention, favors, etc.

That third thing is the worst part of being FriendZoned. You're wasting time, resources, effort, and energy on someone who isn't interested. As Rollo pointed out, women will crawl over broken glass to fuck a man they want to fuck. If you allow yourself to be used in this manner, and she's doing nothing for you at all, this is what most guys in the manosphere are talking about when they advise against having female friends.

however....

Genuine friends who are female, while rare, can exist. Here's how you filter for them.

1) try to get her to fix you up with some of her hot friends. If she sets you up with a decent one, while steering you clear of man-eaters, then she's a real friend. If she constantly makes excuses for every single one of them as to why she can't/won't introduce you, she's more than likely trying to keep you as a backup option.

2) if you start dating a woman, get a girlfriend, or even just hook up with a chick at a party, is the friend in question happy for you? If so, then she's a real friend. Does she act jealous and weird? She was most likely using you as a backup option and hates that she's losing you as one. (yes, there's a possibility that she's a real friend and knows your new woman is bad for you. while possible, this doesn't happen all that much from what I've seen.)

3) does she do things for you, even though she clearly won't sleep with you? Does she give you gifts, or cook meals for you, invite you to parties she's hosting, etc etc etc? Or are the friendship gestures strictly one-sided, with you doing all that shit, like moving her furniture, buying her shit, etc? If you have an ounce of sense and self-respect, then you know what the answers to these questions mean.

that's great, Typo, but why would I want any female friends?!

Aside from the same reason you want male friends (companionship, you do shit for each other, etc), they offer something male friends don't necessarily give very well: strong social proof.

Women tend to be cautious around men they don't know, and for good reason. But if they see that you have female friends, a lot of their trepidations vanish. You are safe! You aren't going to cut them into pieces and feed them to pigs! You aren't going to put them in a pit, starve them until their skin is loose, and then kill them to make a suit out of their skin! Yes, it's kind of silly, but it makes sense from their perspective.

If you find yourself in a woman's FriendZone, just pay attention to how she treats you. Decided what you'll tolerate, and what you're willing to do for others and what you expect in return. Don't be afraid to let users (of either sex) fall away, while still cultivating friendships with the ones who help you on your journey (or at least are fun to hang out with without draining you).

A change to my orginal response as I reread your post, and understand it a bit better. I believe what you aren't understanding is what type of game is going to make things happen for you in different environments....AND what type of women to approach in the first place.

The fact of the matter is if you are in a high status type environment, the women are going to be looking for high status men. So unless you are a physical outlier...you probably arent going to get very far. It sounds like you took a trip somewhere and didnt get very far in the environment you ended up in.

So as per my original post, I would advise you to just interact with women you see on a daily basis. Dont wait until you are in the hottest club in miami around call girls and think you can run some game on them. These women are used to being tricked off on by millionares and that's all they want in those environmets.

Stop waiting to travel somewhere....or be in "the hot spot" to try an run game. Just meet women wherever you encounter them. Also what you need to understand about the most beautiful women almost everywhere is that they are monetized. Again if you aren't talking money....and showing money.....their interest will be low. i'm talking 9's and 10's with the 10 pounds of makeup fake tits etc.

Again unless you are a outlier physcially and 8, 9, or 10 level with the physique to match. honeslty go after the 8's...that the sweet spot.

As for becoming more of a challenge.....that only works if the woman is actually interested in the first place. You cant really play hard to get with a woman that isnt attracted to you in the first place.

I also noticed you saying that you approach girls for your friends. Try going places alone more often....stop involving your friends in the persuit of women. It sounds strange to most, but it actually makes you appear far more mature and confident when you can go out by yourself. It also makes things far less complex in trying to fix everyone up(her firends, your friends)......figuring out logitics for leaving the club/bar/venue. Alone is best...for travel too.

PROTIP: look for women in groups of two. Women tend to go out with that one slutty friend when they are looking to get into something with a guy. They are very guarded of their reputation so pulling one from a larger group is often difficult. Also look at body language. If a woman is off in a location dancing with her friends.....she isnt looking to meet anyone. sitting isolated in a vip..not looking to meet anyone.

women will place themslevels in areas where they can be seen and are accessable if they want to meet someone. Learning to pick the proper target is a HUGE part of this. When you get really good, you tell just by looking around the room which women are actually open to meeting someone.

I still see regular guys with these chicks and it sometimes makes me think is it social situation these guys are in like social groups are the only way to really connect with these high smv women.

Well yeah.... social game is generally the easiest way.

The crazy part is a lot of my friends pull, but they never approach.

how does it work for them?

It's actually so weird they don't get approached or anything really but I guess either social game, or they maximize their opportunities when they go out.

Well, someone is talking to someone, so how is it happening?

I approached for all of us the whole trip and it felt like a losing game, most approaches were actually good, but I feel I need to take the next step, maybe improve my physical and verbal escalation.

The reality is that you're looking at around 1 out of 30 cold approaches leading to sex (day game, no IOIs). Night game, with IOIs and social proof, maybe that's one in 20......... 1 in 10 if you are very good and very attractive.

You should be physically escalating. Available women love it. Unavailable women hate it.

It feels like you're constantly being assessed, like looks, status, frame, even social media,

yes, but not in the way you think.

but I want these hot girls, I need to turn conversations more exciting

right, so do what excites you and talk about what you find exciting.

I have no idea how to be challenging and

Not hugely relevant. Work on being emotionally engaging.

I think thats where im going wrong. Heavily relying on my looks and I dont get nearly as much iois as I used to.

Right

It feels like a clock is always ticking, not that im scared of getting old, but that I'll have less time as it gets eaten up by bigger priorities(many of these things are good).

You are nerding out on irrelevancies now.

This all doesn't help that as I enter my 30s Im struggling to find a place for women in my life, the time the energy to get them.

ok

The activation energy, if you will seems so high that I'm losing my peace. I barely have time for any leisure any more with work which is fine but im becoming increasingly neurotic toward women, my libido is high and it almost feels like I have a sex addiction without the sex, a bottomless pit, a never ending sense of gluttony like itll never be enough no matter how may women, maybe it's the fierce competitiveness in me to always want to do better. That being said I actually like my life more now and seem to have found some meaning but the feeling still exists.

you need to work out what you want

How can I finally be a challenge and conquer this hold I've had over my life?

you don't need to be a challenge, you need options

I'm sorry if this post is incoherent and jumpy, but I couldn't even figure out exactly what I'm trying to articulate. I took some time to think it through and read a lot of the recent asktrp, and now I'm even more confused.

What do you want? If you want sex, get sex and then work out what you want next.

For example, 2 of them used to buy me dinner or gifts all the time. Just, no intimacy.

Ok, so female friends.

I've been blocking them because I fear that I might get jealous and simp at some point, and ridicule myself but idk if this is an ego thing because those chicks could still be useful as wingmen. Or they might not because they might gossip about how they friendzoned me to other chicks.

I doubt they'd gossip about you in a way that's detrimental to you

And I'm also not telling them anything when I block, so it might seem weird. I could be overthinking things as well. Any insights?

Look.... female friends is good. No need to block, so long as they are genuine friends. Genuine friends benefit you and your life and it's a mutual thing. If that's what it is, great.

The ones you block are the ones who friendzone you while being shitty friends.