@redpillschool The irony is that the peasants' revolt actually changed nothing. The peasants got control of London but then didn't know what to do next, instead of overthrowing the nobles and ruling, they just had a piss up and organised a parlay with the king. At the parlay the nobles who knew that violence sorts what parlays won't killed the leader of the revolt and pretty soon they are all dead or had fled.

The peasants did not understand that to overthrow an existing set of rulers, you need to take control and use any force necessary to replace the establishment members who are in control. Establishments won't normally just agree to change that is going to destroy them. That's like turkeys voting for Christmas. (The white male agreeing to bow out of control has been a unique exception to this. Let us hope it is temporary).

What actually changed a man's ability to work for another employer was the economics of the black death -a proper pandemic not a fake one. There were not enough peasants and so the bottom dropped out of the economy -which was based on food production and rent from peasants. Anyone who did have money could lure the few valuable workers away and those who had not got enough couldn't really afford to enforce their rights to have their workers back. A mercantile class who hired labour instead of owned the rights to laborers rose up.

I don't think any comparisons work in this case. The black death was a real pandemic that gradually freed an ignorant people enslaved for centuries. Covid was a nasty new cold that showed an informed people that the experts were not helping society or actually that expert either.

@Stigma I think one can defend the church on its works throughout history which stand in the balance considerably more on the side of good than evil. But its ethics run from what was self evident to all but the most depraved of the ancients to things that are only desired and achieved by the less than sane.

Take Pope Alexander the 6th -very successful pope, great patron of the arts, good father who pushed his kids forward in the world but not too hot on the old Christian ethics. St Francis -total fruit loop who failed his family, pussied out of serving his people in war but great on the Christian ethics.

I seek neither to attack nor defend the church. I am just tired of people defining themselves and their ethical and spiritual positions against Christianity. Its a wider world out there and Christians are a very "broad church".

@Stigma I don't disagree with you in principle but the practice is very different in most western christian churches. This was not the case in medieval catholicism. They got burnt by going too far in other directions like indulgences for money. But today the majority of Christian leaders in the west are liberal fruit cakes living in a world of prosperity that shields them from reality.

The other day I was at a town once famous as an ancient Marian shrine but today more famous for being a latter day sodom and gommorah. The aim was to get my lady her plenary indulgence for the jubilee year. At the re-booted post Henry VIII catholic Marian shrine we could not get in because the "godless" needed to be excluded for their messed up behaviour -they would have been passing out drunk and sleeping in the church if they had been given the chance. We had to call a number to get let in by someone who told us just what he thought of the wildlife. Then she fancied seeing the Church Henry stole, so we went to see that one too. There the godless were sleeping in the churchyard and bringing small dogs into the church where they could urinate as their owners were being "helped" by well meaning people. There were some of those silly rainbow fag flags and some writings up on the wall (like a primary school teacher's display about the need to be kind to immigrants and to disarm).

I wouldn't blame someone raised against that having had enough of the Christian church's mercy and forgiveness. Its not the principles its the current practise. Look at that woman preacher who laid into trump when she was supposed to be welcoming her head of state into office. The churches have lost the plot. That's actually nothing to do with atheism but a lot of people conflate the church with deity.