@t7716

2-year situationship. Where to go from here

35M. Been seeing this girl almost 2 years, nonexclusive. She’s wanted to be my girlfriend for a long time, but I’ve held off because of her inconsistency and poor follow-through. She knows I’ve seen other women. The whole time its been meet 1x a week chill at my spot, drink, fuck, stays late, then leaves. I actually do like this girl but she’s on and off with letting me just lead. When I tell her maybe this type of thing isn’t for her she claims it is and she wants to be in it and follows with “I just need care” basically saying I don’t show I like her and she’s scared to let go.

so it’s basically I’m not committing because she’s not being fully submissive and showing me what being with her would be like. And her claim is she’s not being fully submissive because she doesn’t feel care/secure. Whether that’s true or not who know but that’s the claim.

Early on she was extremely sexual and spontaneous. Initiated dirty talk, sent pics of marks from the night before, dressed up for me, etc. We had a dom/sub dynamic she seemed genuinely into. I still tell her what to wear when she comes over every time.

Now it’s mostly girlfriend type affection. “My jacket smells like you ”, missing me, wanting to cuddle. Sex is still great when we’re together, but she barely initiates anything sexual outside the bedroom anymore.

Saturdays are another noticeable change. She works during the week long shifts and is usually off Sat–Tue. Saturday used to be our regular day, and she’d initiate seeing me. Now she rarely does, and sometimes says she’s unavailable without suggesting another time. No proof of another guy, but the change is obvious.

Recently she brought up Halloween and volunteered to wear a costume for me. Said she’d check her closet, then never followed up. When I asked, she claimed she had nothing, despite recently buying and wearing a dress at my place.

She then offered to go shopping and send pictures. I asked for 3 sexy costume options by 3 PM. She asked for 5, I agreed. She came back with zero pictures, saying nothing was worth buying and she’d ordered clothes online. Didn’t even show me what she’d ordered.

Then she said she’d make it up to me and asked if we were seeing each other. I declined. The next day I texted, “Should’ve done what we agreed then. No excuse for that.” Haven’t spoken since.

Where I’ve probably fucked up: I’ve stayed available on her days off when she doesn’t give any effort to come by after work. I’ve made entry too easy after she’s done shit I don’t like. And she might see that as my word doesn’t mean much.

My main question is whether she’s losing genuine sexual attraction, deliberately toning it down to get girlfriend treatment, or simply no longer investing the same effort.

I’m planning to stop being automatically available and let her initiate more rather than keep trying to recreate the old dynamic.

What’s your read? The main question I have is whether you think she’s backing off the sexual talk/energy because she’s trying to fit into the role she wants that wholesome girlfriend or if she just lost attraction/had another guy.

I could have very easily tested her whole claim that she’s not fully letting go by saying sure we’re exclusive you’re mine and continued to fuck other girls and watched what she did but I didn’t.

Especially interested in whether I’ve contributed to this and what you’d actually do from here. Not looking for generic “next her” replies.

You don't need anyone's permission or approval on your relationship choices, let alone from a bunch of randos like us. That choice is yours and it honestly reads like you've spent a good bit of time assessing this situation.

You already know that she's not as interested in you as she used to be. Sure, she enjoys that you plow her out as you do, but she's not seeking your attention with any particular enthusiasm. She's also not making herself available as often as she used to, because she's already moved on, and its clear you're feeling it's time you do the same.

Unless you both share children, or housing with each other, I don't see you having anything particular to lose by simply cutting this girl out of your life and moving on. Best of luck to you, whatever choice you ultimately make.

@Saltycroc

do you think its not worth having these kind of conversations with women at all?

Sure, but from a position of strength. Not from a position of her already having withdrawn sex, and now you're having an argument about it. That's just attention seeking on her part, and you reactively giving her said attention. If she wants your attention, it's up to her to make it worth your while.

like when I can feel a confrontation starting, I just leave the situation, instead of having a serious conversation with her.

Depends on the topic of contention. But no, you shouldn't be conflict avoidant. If you can keep calm, state your point, and know in the back of your mind that you're always ready to walk away, then have it.

As for sex specifically though, if you're already at a place where you're having conflicts about sex, then don't. Sex is something you can have conversations about when sex is already great, and not a point of contention.

There are lots of things in life and relationships that can potentially be negotiated. Sort of comes with the territory of being in a relationship. Desire isn't one of those things though.

do you think this is wrong and if things are getting hostile, I just walk away until everything has calmed down?

It shouldn't be "hostile" though. That's not a "conversation" in my book. If things are hostile, that's a matter of you having boundaries. You don't let people talk to you in certain ways. And yes, the "conversation" is over at that point.

@newguy177

Question on "bad guys" keeping women hooked

I was at a colleague's place a few days back.

We were just chatting about random stuff and topic of relationships of came up. While she was hesitant of sharing this at first, she eventually shared about one of her bad flings from one of her previous jobs.

Apparently, as per her, this guy was a manager from a different team and would only call her/reach out to her during night - only for sex. Apart from that, he was mostly cold to her, wouldn't reply to messages quickly, wouldn't even initiate conversations, etc.

Eventually, she ended up pregnant and had to abort. He didn't help during this time either, and she had to carry out all things for abortion all on her own too.

While she was telling me this, she seemed disappointed and angry at herself for being foolish. That she spent so much time and went through so much for someone who didn't give two fucks about her.

While I'm not exactly new to trp, but i'm only now in a position to do more applied stuff regularly.

I've heard some similar stories from my other circles as well. Basically, women putting up with what I'd consider just crass and shockingly cruel behaviour, just to have to the tingles of emotions.

My understanding about this comes from the Lover vs Provider dynamic.

"Bad" Guys show/have behavior and skills that demonstrate evolutionary fitness:

• Risk-taking ability
• Fearlessness
• Better physique
• Humour
• Social Skills
• Confidence
• Power

Usually very opposite to the billy beta, the provider good boy, who can only provide things security, emotional undestanding, monetary resources, etc.

And so, for short term relationships (or even long term relationships if they are able secure them), women only prefer to go for guys that demonstrate the lover side of behaviors.

Would this be a correct understanding? Or am I missing some other pieces here?

You maybe missing a lot, but that's really only something time, knowledge, and experience can remedy. Be patient with yourself. There are plenty of #books, blogs, and youtube video archives you can check out to get informed. As for her, it reads like your colleagues depressed and brought it on herself. This starts to happen when the men she prefers start looking through her, not at her.

You're kind of wrong that the guy had no f#$ks to give, though. If anything, from what you've shared of what she told you, f#$ks were about all the guy was ever going to give someone he'd concluded as being only worth a lay. Unfortunately, her earlier rejection of the sage advice that most girls receive, that they should never freely give their milk away to men who're not willing to buy the cow, is why that's all she would ever get from him and similarly inclined guys.

@Saltycroc

She started arguing about small things, and then i would naturally get fed up around her because of this, causing her to get more upset.

Right. She's bickering because she's lost respect and/or attraction for you.

At times where i was trying to comfort her, i genuinely felt bad and acted pretty beta saying shit like “how can i prove x to you” and i think me saying shit like this killed attraction.

Don't do that shit. You can be supportive without supplication. You can support her without lowering your value and your options. You can be helpful without lowering yourself to cockroach level.

Never prove anything, and never offer to prove anything.

If she says "wahhhhhhhhhh you don't love me, I need you to prove blahhhhhhhhh"...... understand this for what it is: beta bait. "Be beta for me to stop me crying!"

Don't fall into that trap.

And really, if she needs comforting because of..... what..... err.... I mean, noone died, why can't she be fucking normal?

This is gonna sound gay as fuck but oh well.

During that time where we weren't official we were so attracted to each-other and i really did fall in love and she did too. Its pretty heartbreaking for this to happen and i do want to try and solve things

I think what happened is that you both fell for each other...... but when you "fell in love", you got all beta and this killed attraction.

I doubt it's salvageable honestly.

@Saltycroc

I know some people here would say when she with-drawls sex the relationship is already over

People here will say that because it's the truth.

Now, maybe, if you were married with kids, I'd suggest pulling away your attention, spending more time away from home etc.

But you're not married with kids though. She's just a girlfriend. She should be all over you at this moment in time, to the point where playing these withdrawing-sex-games would be a massive bummer to herself.

This is a simple 'next'. Either a hard next, or a soft next. In either case, you don't take her seriously again. Because you now know what the future has in store for you with this broad.

Also know that women shit test because they're unsure of their attraction to you. And that's fine early stage. But there comes a time when either the shit testing has to stop, or you need to realise this chick isn't that into you. That time is well before you give her the girlfriend status.

Dump her, or put her on the side, and in the future, only take seriously women who are undeniably into you, and don't shit test you.

Also, learn to keep your fucking cool. You don't argue over sex. It's pathetic. You either dump, or you get it elsewhere. But you don't negotiate - which is what arguing and making her cry is.