@Bozza Sounds like it will happen when she is ready. Too many green lights from her for her not to want it.

If she chooses the couch first time around, its no loss. All women like players, some just fear to get played. This is not a case of seducing her, its a case of letting her give herself permission to do something she clearly already wants to do. Once you establish that you offer a genuine connection with someone who cares about her feelings and reputation without asking anything in return but to enjoy mutual pleasure, she will very probably soften fast.

Women from conservative backgrounds with different gender roles know men and women can't really be friends. So they don't go and sleep over at the houses of men that they won't sleep with at all. Its just the usual thing of she has to feel relaxed and keen enough. Then it will just happen, particularly if you don't push her into having to say "No" but let her heat up naturally till she can't think of anything but "I love this, when is he going to hurry up and escalate?"

If you seemed blocked at heavy make out stage, waiting for her to get heated up in a make out session and then being a discrete gentleman and suggesting getting a hotel room might help break through reticence? No chance of your house mate and his girl learning about it if she doesn't tell. What has she to lose? She already knows she wants to. If she doesn't accept, it will definitely spin her hamster wheel up thinking what she missed.

@First-light

Basically my house mate started dating an Iranian girl. She ended up bringing her friend over to stay the weekend. Soon as we locked eyes I knew it was on.

Lots of IoIs but escalating was difficult. We got back to mine, alone. She was much more receptive. But it was odd. She didn't mind me touching her inner thighs and touching her pussy. But kissing was too much for her. Go figure.

I went to escalate further and she shut it down - saying her friend told her I'm a player and that she should stay away from me. That was some LMR I wasn't able to push past.

She came back another weekend to stay. We all went out drinking. I just treated it as a bit of light hearted fun. She ends up grabbing me and kissing me. Starts screening me hard. Nothing sexual happened in the end but it got hot and heavy (in private).

She then tracks me down on Instagram, DMs me and gives me her phone number unprompted.

I've got a bunch of spare tickets to some music events I bought 6 months ago with no-one to go with. She likes similar music so I invited her to come with me - no expectations, I'd just rather go with someone cool than go alone so I don't really care.

She agreed. Said she might struggle to get home, so wants to stay at mine. Which could be a green light, but she may also decide she wants to sleep on the sofa, I don't know.

She's really hard to read.

@Bozza I am only an outside observer of dating today but I think you are right, there have been changes in the SMP, while underlying human nature remains of course unchanging.

Some of the changes are a result of women getting too much of what they want with swiping left and right on OLD to the point they are sickened by what they can do to themselves after getting run through by the same sort of high value low commitment players time and again and some of the changes are driven by men having changed their game through more red pill type thought and learning to push women's buttons and women reacting to this.

Overall, I suspect that women are not on average quite as quick to let their buttons be pushed by the classic tells of male high value in return for zero investment from the man of things like; time, thought, emotion, money. There is less free and easy good timing than there once was. Western women are also getting more into money from men than they once were. This is a result of prosperity and easy money falling in the lower end of the white collar sector where women have previously thrived.

I think one can see it in popular culture. Girls no longer "just want to have fun" Girls want more value transfer and emotional support than they used to as well as the fun. When older women talk to younger ones, you don't so much get "well you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you fid your prince" or "you go have fun girl" There tends to be a lot said about how relationships "damage" women when they end badly and women are just more wary of what they can do to themselves by slutting (though the blame it on the men of course).

The movie industry is always a good indicator of mainstream liberal thought. Sex just doesn't come as easy in movies as it did. In fact it has got harder for characters (particularly male characters) to get sex since the early 80's. Sex (and love) is a lower priority for characters than it used to be. Women are simply less sexual than they were when they had no worries, enough money and less excess body fat.

I think it is time for a slight recalibration of the tone of some of the advice handed out for starting sexual relationships with women. Otherwise men are getting advised on how to get inside the underwear of good time sluts who they meet through OLD, bars or fairly cold approaches and thinking they now have the keys to how to "handle women".