@Stigma I think one can defend the church on its works throughout history which stand in the balance considerably more on the side of good than evil. But its ethics run from what was self evident to all but the most depraved of the ancients to things that are only desired and achieved by the less than sane.

Take Pope Alexander the 6th -very successful pope, great patron of the arts, good father who pushed his kids forward in the world but not too hot on the old Christian ethics. St Francis -total fruit loop who failed his family, pussied out of serving his people in war but great on the Christian ethics.

I seek neither to attack nor defend the church. I am just tired of people defining themselves and their ethical and spiritual positions against Christianity. Its a wider world out there and Christians are a very "broad church".

@Stigma I don't disagree with you in principle but the practice is very different in most western christian churches. This was not the case in medieval catholicism. They got burnt by going too far in other directions like indulgences for money. But today the majority of Christian leaders in the west are liberal fruit cakes living in a world of prosperity that shields them from reality.

The other day I was at a town once famous as an ancient Marian shrine but today more famous for being a latter day sodom and gommorah. The aim was to get my lady her plenary indulgence for the jubilee year. At the re-booted post Henry VIII catholic Marian shrine we could not get in because the "godless" needed to be excluded for their messed up behaviour -they would have been passing out drunk and sleeping in the church if they had been given the chance. We had to call a number to get let in by someone who told us just what he thought of the wildlife. Then she fancied seeing the Church Henry stole, so we went to see that one too. There the godless were sleeping in the churchyard and bringing small dogs into the church where they could urinate as their owners were being "helped" by well meaning people. There were some of those silly rainbow fag flags and some writings up on the wall (like a primary school teacher's display about the need to be kind to immigrants and to disarm).

I wouldn't blame someone raised against that having had enough of the Christian church's mercy and forgiveness. Its not the principles its the current practise. Look at that woman preacher who laid into trump when she was supposed to be welcoming her head of state into office. The churches have lost the plot. That's actually nothing to do with atheism but a lot of people conflate the church with deity.

@First-light You know, leaving you with that brief essay was lazy of me. Let me expand my thoughts on it:

It isn't the preserve of Christians that unrequited forgiveness be given to all and sundry. Like everything in Christianity, it presumes cultural familiarity, community and cohesion.

It is the malignancy of a diverse society that the ethics of Christianity be put upon those who would reject it. That is, the "self evident" ethics, taken on by a cultural familiarity but ultimately divergent ideologies (humanists, progressives, liberals etc.) attempt to apply that lesson of forgiveness to those it does not apply to, or those who would steal and rob you of that moral guidance.

A Christian forgiving a Christian within the concept of Christian forgiveness will find themselves forgiven!

A progressive who forgives a non will find themselves abused...

Charity, as seen by the Christian church is not as you propose

Mark 4:21

A Lamp Under a Basket

21 And he said to them, “Is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket, or under a bed, and not on a stand? 22 For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light. 23 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.” 24 And he said to them, “Pay attention to what you hear: with the measure you use, it will be measured to you, and still more will be added to you. 25 For to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.”

One can not survive on charity alone, and so it does the Christian and the one receiving charity ill to persist in that manner.

@Typo-MAGAshiv While it is very true that a lot of atheists are actually anti christians, I also have some sympathy for them. They are still in the matrix of modern western thought and they can't see past the fact that they hate modern liberal ethics or they hate christian morals (usually over sexual practices) and so they reject christianity and therefore they reject any divinity.

The problem is that christianity got a monopoly on divinity and morality in the west. Almost all modern liberal ethics have their roots in christian ideas of tolerance, benevolence and forgiveness. Its no surprise when we see the way that the Christian church controlled almost all aspects of life in the middle ages in the west.

I live with a very devout catholic. She sings many of the offices of the day, she plays endless lectures from catholic theologians during the day. She always does her rosary in latin. I am just back from taking her on a pilgrimage. She is always telling me that without christian ethics, the world would be a terrible place. I always counter by saying that "I do not need a god to tell me the things any man can see if he has eyes" I don't need a god to tell me not to kill or steal from or deceive my own people, not to chase other men's women, not to disrespect my father and mother, not to take cocks up my arse or to encourage well fed mothers to kill their own children in their wombs. These things are self evident. The problem is that the monopoly on goodness remains unbroken in the west. It all comes back through the christian church.

Where I would differ a little from the christian church is in the unending forgiveness and the constant desire to give people stuff when they ask but have not earned nor show any tendency to start earning. These thigs are not self evidently good. Kindness is self evidently good until it is not reciprocated. Taking care of the weak is good, provided they do not see it as entitlement and become ungrateful. We need to break free from the shackles of the concept of charity as seen by the christian church. Again one does not need to be an atheist to see what is self evident. Taking christian charity to what seemed like its logical conclusion has got immigrants and women taking over, bums living better than workers.